1_Thought Process_Kent Ward

[00:00:00] Josh: So, before we get started, I wanted to acknowledge that talking about AI is triggering. It's anxiety inducing. It's coming for art. It's coming for music. It's coming for the things we hold sacred. And that can be scary. Maybe before each show, we can take a minute to accept however we're feeling, get grounded with some deep breaths.

You know, we are all in this together. So everybody stop and breathe one.

Two, three. 

Okay, one more thing. There is something I like to tell my friends, co workers, when they're having a rough day, and that is, you are a human being with intrinsic worth. And with that, let's begin. 

This is Skills AI Can't [00:01:00] Steal. Hello and welcome to Skills AI Kent Steele. The podcast where creative thinkers and doers like you talk about how we can be more and more human in a world that is more and more automated.

So for my first guest, we have Kent Ward. I've worked on Kent's team for almost a year. We almost had a year together. He's a really great guy. he's got, A really interesting background. I'd like him to introduce himself. Kent, go ahead and tell the audience a little bit about yourself. 

[00:01:33] Kent: You bet. Josh, thanks for having me on the show.

I'm super excited to be the first guest. getting the, getting the tough one out of the way, I guess. And then, it's all, it's all downhill from here. I'm Kent. I've been a creative director and, ACD in, the industry for a long time. I started in fashion retail. Always on the digital side.

Always looking at, you know, new technologies and performance and how to automate and scale. [00:02:00] I've built and run teams, both in fashion retail and in tech. teams of digital creatives and, copywriters. I think my favorite thing to do in the industry was always Mentoring my teams, because this is a benefit that I had, coming up through Nordstrom.

Mentoring my teams on how to understand the business, how to communicate with their business partners, in a way that's not always, natural for us creatives, right? Breaking out of the creative box and, and learning how to talk to, you know, your business partners in, in their language. so that's kind of been my niche and, yeah, so.

That's, that's me. 

[00:02:38] Josh: Thank you Kent. Kent really does have that specific skill of being able to talk to the creatives on his team and also to the ROI business minded folk on the other side of the wall in, in marketing. I've really never met anyone that has both those skill sets who can demand the respect of the creatives and also the respect of the, of the people who are talking, [00:03:00] you know, dollars.

So, big kudos for you on that. We could have, we could do a whole other podcast on how that works. But I did want to talk to you today about the tech industry is hurting. There's news, a lot of people getting laid off, left and right, left and right. People I know. And Kent, you have looked at a lot of, you have been on the hiring side, right?

You've built teams from the ground up. You hired people. And in, in this current climate where AI and, you know, chatGPT and, you know, all of the, the, the, the visual creative AIs that can just create something out of what seems like nothing in an instant, you know, you've looked at a lot of portfolios in this kind of climate where, where it's easier and easier to make things that look cool with less and less time, [00:04:00] less and less.

Skill, what, how can we be more human? How can we exercise our human abilities to not, not get ahead, but, but to, to really show off, you know, our, our thought process or, you know. 

[00:04:15] Kent: Yeah, that's a, that's a really great question. so, you know, as I'm looking at AI and looking at these tools. You know, I'm seeing these like, you know, digital publishing.

I'm seeing this as kind of like, you know, when digital photography hit the scene. I have old school photographer friends that had to give up their studios because all of a sudden anyone with a digital camera was able to pop out images quickly and cheaply. And, you know, the quality in the industry, you know, went down, but there was pressure there because of these new tools that were coming up.

And there's still things. As we're looking at these new portfolio pieces, these new technologies that AI just isn't good [00:05:00] at. If you, I'm gonna go back to my fashion background, right? If you're a fashion designer and you have a gown or a jacket and you want to sell this jacket, AI isn't to a point to where it's gonna be able to degenerate.

Images that have your jacket with your details in, in perfect resolution, right, with, with every, you know, attention to detail. So we can't do that yet. We're still going to need photographers. We're still going to need creatives to actually take the real products in the real world and bring them in. But how can we use AI as a way to, you know, help that process along?

We can use it for concepting. We can use it as a tool to get our thoughts into a digital space so we can try new things. but really, when you're looking at, you know, real world products that we have to sell, real world, you know, [00:06:00] problems that we're trying to solve, it still needs us driving the ship.

So, you know, I think what we're gonna end up seeing is, more people. Being able to do more work, at a higher level with smaller teams. and it's going to be the same thing that we saw in, in digital publishing. It's going to be the same thing that we saw with the Gutenberg Press. You know, you're not going to need as many people doing as many individual jobs.

You're going to be able to have one person that's bringing everything together and kind of moving that forward. But when you're thinking about how we can be more human in our approach, how we can use this tool to our advantage, or not use this tool at all and still succeed, it's all about the concept and the storytelling.

And that's always been the most important part in what we do, and it always will be. So I want 

[00:06:51] Josh: to interject into the conversation for a moment here to clarify some things and give you some perspective on how I see this podcast series evolving. [00:07:00] So for this episode, just wanting to let you know, Kent and I have very different opinions about AI.

Kent has been doubling down on trying. chat GPT and all the AIs to figure out how to use them for work. I, on the other hand, am very wary of it all, and I see a lot of the possible negative outcomes. For one thing, AI is scraping the work of millions of human artists. It's without attribution, without compensation, and it does this at scale for a huge profit.

And until serious regulation helps to dampen some of these effects, I will continue to be cynical. However, I like Kent as a person. We've worked together. We're friends. I appreciate his talent. I appreciate that he listens and has an open mind. I appreciate him as a human being. And I thought this could make for some really engaging conversation.

For the podcast series as a whole, I'd like it really to be [00:08:00] less about AI and more about humans, about people. How do we practice and exercise our uniquely human skills and abilities to flourish, to be more and more human, not less? If you're looking to doomscroll about how AI is It's gonna take over everything.

I suggest you look elsewhere. Thank you. Okay, back to the show. We had talked earlier a little bit about the topic of thought process, showing your thought process. AI doesn't really have a thought process. It's just scraping millions of images and mashing it together. It's just like, What is the next pixel most likely to be?

And, to my earlier question, like when you're, if, if, if you're out there looking at portfolios and, you know, for, for visual designers, UX designers, you know, and they're, you're, you're looking at a stack of portfolios, what are you looking for, in an age where [00:09:00] AI is going to be creeping into portfolios?

[00:09:03] Kent: The first thing that I look for is something that's going to grab my attention and be compelling and make me feel something. And I personally, you're going to hate hearing this Josh, I personally don't care if it's AI generated or if it's, you know, hand done or, or whatever. It doesn't matter to me. The end product has to be compelling.

And then after that point You know, if I'm going to start considering someone, then I want to see the thought process. Then I want to see the most important thing that any designer can bring to the table. I want to see curiosity. I want to see how they got from point A to point B, what questions they asked, what they explored, and whatever tool they used to get there.

doesn't really matter to me. I want to see how they tackled the problem, what data they ingested, what, what, [00:10:00] inspiration, you know, took them to this certain spot, and why they think their end result is going to be successful. 

[00:10:10] Josh: Why? That is fascinating. why curiosity? What is it? Why did you even use that word?

[00:10:19] Kent: Curiosity to me is probably the the biggest thing that I look at when hiring a designer because Designers are not Artists many designers think they're artists, but that's not our job Designers are not scientists A lot of science goes into design, but that's not our job. Designers are the people who bring together art and science.

We're doing something that's visual. We're doing something that tells a story and evokes an emotion. But it's done for a specific reason. It's done for a specific [00:11:00] cause. This is the dirty side of being a marketer. No matter what we're doing, we're doing our job in order to influence someone's action. We can have a whole nother podcast about why marketing is the dark side and UX UI design is the light side.

Right? UX and UI design, they're trying to make everything easy for the customer to do or for the user to do what that user already wants to do. In marketing, we're trying to influence that decision. For better or for worse, we can believe that our product is amazing and that it's worth every penny that you're going to pay for it.

But when it comes down to it, we are trying to influence someone to do something that they might not have naturally done. Whether it's for their benefit or their detriment. So, knowing that, as a designer, I'm looking for people who are going to ask those questions. What is the user thinking? What are they feeling?

How can I evoke this emotion? How can I influence this action? And how can I use my skills as an artist and my [00:12:00] knowledge as a scientist, bring these things together and create a solution that's going to perform? 

[00:12:06] Josh: Nice, nice. How, how does somebody show that thought process in a portfolio? like, what have you seen that works?

Or, or what have you seen that has impressed you that you can share? 

[00:12:21] Kent: Anything that I look at and it immediately evokes an emotional reaction is gonna be a winner. That's gonna pique my curiosity. And then after that, that's when I want to start asking the designer questions. Why did you do this? What were you trying to do with this?

What were your, what was your goal when you put this together? And if they can articulate that answer in a way that shows me that they truly, deeply thought about the solution. That's a winner. I mean, that person's hired. 

[00:12:55] Josh: How do you, how do you get a persuasive portfolio out there before the interview? Like [00:13:00] how do they, how does someone articulate that in, in, you know, through images, pictures, like showing their thought process to you before the interview to get them to that interview where they can have that conversation with you? 

[00:13:12] Kent: Yeah, that's a great point. And everybody hires a little bit differently.

Me, I will bring someone in for an interview without them having proven anything. If they just give me a bunch of really compelling eye candy, you know, a lot of times that's enough to bring them in and then I'll start digging deeper. but, there's a lot of people who aren't like that. Especially on the UX UI side or, you know, things that, that lean that direction.

so, proving that out before you get to the interview process is a really good idea. What I look for I would love to see the process from start to finish. So, if I see something that is really compelling and then I click into that to get more details, this is what I would love to see. I would love to see the goal or a really one or two sentence breakdown of the brief.

What were [00:14:00] you asked to do? After that, I want to see the sausage. I want to see how it was made. I want to see your sketches. I want to see your mood boards. I want to see where you, you know, drew inspiration from. And I want to see how you navigated all of that. And, you know, the, the, the It can be messy at that point.

Like, I don't care if it's napkin sketches. I just want to see how you thought about things. After that, I would love to see iterations. Your first iteration can be crap, I don't even care. Not everything has to be polished, but I want to see how you got from point A to point B. And then at the end, if you can show me The difference that your product or that your your design made right if you could show me the performance metrics That's gonna be a huge bonus.

[00:14:51] Josh: Okay, so there's there's kind of two different things there There's like show me that you understood what the ask [00:15:00] was and then show me that it made a difference Yeah, and then in between of this sandwich is like the work. I think people including myself are a little bit wary of Showing The sketches, like, I, I'm, I'm a, you know, video producer, motion designer, I make, you know, motion design videos, and I do a lot of storyboards.

I am not a storyboard artist. You know, my, my children can barely read my handwriting. 

[00:15:32] Kent: And that's a great point. I think there's a lot of designers out there that are afraid of showing their dirty laundry, but this is what I would say to every single one of them. When I'm looking at a portfolio, And I see a sloppy, messy, you know, napkin sketch that ended up spurring an idea for later on.

That shows me that that designer has enough confidence in their ability to be able to show the [00:16:00] messy process. And that designer is going to be confident enough to collaborate. Early on before anything's processed before anything's polished and that person knows what they're doing Show the messy sketch.

[00:16:17] Josh: I love that. I love that So yeah showing the messy in between just hearing you're kind of like Excitement to like show me the messy in between right that people shouldn't be Afraid and you made an interesting connection that someone who is confident enough to to put that to show that Might also be confident enough to show that to a stakeholder right not be so precious about you know their idea or Looking good. Can you speak to that?

[00:16:52] Kent: I think you've hit the nail right on the head. It is much more important to collaborate early and often [00:17:00] and have people engaged in the process. And I've seen a lot of designers, you know, both new and experienced, who shy away from that because they're really nervous about showing unpolished work.

They think that it's going to make them look bad. you know, one of the tricks that I learned early on Especially, working in, in fashion retail was if you really wanted to get an idea across a designer, you know, wanted to pitch that idea as polished as possible. So they would go in and they would find scrap, they would find a, you know, sample images and they would do these mockups and they would put these mockups in front of the stakeholders.

And you know what the stakeholders would say, that's the wrong hair color. I don't like her makeup. The lighting is weird. They were showing too much detail. And people were getting hung up on that. If you wanted to show a concept and have that concept bought off on, the best [00:18:00] thing you could do is come with a really rough, undetailed, raw sketch.

Because that is what's going to communicate the idea. So, many times, the rough, raw idea is going to get you much further than polishing your idea before you put it in front of your stakeholder. 

[00:18:21] Josh: That is fantastic advice. And honestly, it was like that, I mean, we've, you and I have been working in creative for long enough, but like, yeah, we've, we've seen that over and over again, right? Happened to other people. We're like, Oh, too, too much, too early. 

[00:18:38] Kent: Yeah, exactly. I don't like her eyeshadow. Like, it's not what this is about. 

[00:18:45] Josh: And, that folks is, is how you can be more human, how you can use your. You're showing the messy in between state as an advantage. AI can't do that. It didn't have a thought process.

It didn't [00:19:00] speak to the stakeholders. So thank you for that wonderful insight. before we close, do you have any I don't know. I should have prepped you before, but, we can tack this on later. A question, a, a, a quest, maybe how to engage with what you have been sharing with us about today. 

[00:19:22] Kent: That's a great question. I think what I would challenge every designer to do And I think this is going to, you know, net out really positive results when you're in your next interview, when you're trying to explain your work. Look at every piece in your portfolio that you're showing, and ask yourself, Why did I do this? If you can answer that question, then you're prepared to speak to it the next time someone asks you that question.

And you should have an answer for every single piece in your portfolio. 

[00:19:56] Josh: Awesome. Well, thank you very much for your time [00:20:00] today, Kent. I'm sure we're going to have you back on the show because, you just speak so well to, to any topic. It's, it's a pleasure to, to work with you and to be on the show with you.

thank you. 

[00:20:14] Kent: This has been great, thank you for inviting me along, and to everybody out there, keep pushing, keep 

[00:20:19] Josh: creating. So before I sign off, I just wanted to say, thank you so much for listening. It really means a lot. If you enjoyed this, if you learned anything useful here today, I encourage you to share it with a friend or a colleague.

In a world that's more and more automated, it's really tempting to want to look out just for yourself. But I think it's much more rewarding to be in this messy in between together. And with that, I'd like to remind you that you are a human being with intrinsic worth. Until next time. This episode was produced and edited by me, [00:21:00] Josh Kidwell.